{"id":58,"date":"2019-01-18T12:00:42","date_gmt":"2019-01-18T12:00:42","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/jacobbr.com\/?p=58"},"modified":"2022-03-13T10:24:49","modified_gmt":"2022-03-13T10:24:49","slug":"conversation-with-david-panos-about-the-searchers","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/jacobbr.com\/?p=58","title":{"rendered":"Conversation with David Panos about The Searchers"},"content":{"rendered":"

The Searchers by David Panos is at Hollybush Gardens, 1-2 Warner Yard London EC1R 5EY, 12 January \u2013 9 February 2019 <\/i><\/p>\n

<\/figure>\n


<\/i>
There is something chattering. Alongside a triptych a small screen displays the rhythmic loop of
\nhands typing, contorting, touching, holding. A movement in which the artifice strains between
\nshuddering and juddering. Machinic GIFs seem to frame an event which may or may not have taken
\nplace. Their motions appear to combine an endless neurotic repetition and a totally adrenal pumped
\nand pumping tension, anticipating confrontation.\u00a0<\/i><\/p>\n

JBR: How do the heavily stylised triptych of screens in \u2018The Searchers\u2019 relate to the GIF-like loops
\ncreated out of conventionally-shot street footage?
\n
DP: I think of the three screens as something like the \u2018unconscious\u2019 of these nervous gestures. I\u2019m
\ninterested in how video compositing can conjure up impossible or interior spaces, perhaps in a way
\nsimilar to painting. Perhaps these semi-abstract images can somehow evoke how bodies are shot
\nthrough with subterranean currents\u2014the strange world of exchange and desire that lies under the
\nsurface of reality or physical experience. Of course abstractions don’t really \u2018inhabit\u2019 bodies and you
\ncan\u2019t depict metaphysics, but Paul Klee had this idea about an aesthetic \u2018interworld\u2019, that painting
\ncould somehow reveal invisible aspects of reality through poetic distortion. Digital video and
\nespecially 3D graphics tend to be the opposite of painting\u2014highly regimented and sat within a very
\npreset Euclidean space. I guess I\u2019ve been trying to wrestle with how these programs can be misused
\nto produce interesting images\u2014how images of figures can be abstracted by them but retain some of
\ntheir twitchy aliveness.
\n
JBR: This raises a question about the difference between the control of your media and the
\nsituation of total control in contemporary cinematic image making.
\n
DP: Under the new regimes of video making, the software often feels like it controls you. Early
\nanalogue video art was a sensuous space of flows and currents, and artists like the Vasulkas were able
\nto build their own video cameras and mixers to allow them to create whole new images\u2014in effect
\nnew ways of seeing. Today that kind of utopian or avant-garde idea that video can make surprising
\nnew orders of images is dead\u2014it\u2019s almost impossible for artists to open up a complex program like
\nCinema 4D and make it do something else. Those softwares were produced through huge capital
\ninvestment funding hundreds of developers. But I\u2019m still interested in engaging with digital and 3D
\nvideo, trying to wrestle with it to try and get it to do something interesting\u2014I guess because the way
\nthat it pictures the world says something about the world at the moment\u2014and somehow it feels that
\none needs to work in relation to the heightened state of commodification and abstraction these
\nprograms represent. So I try and misuse the software or do things by hand as much as possible, and
\nrather than programming and rendering I manipulate things in real time.
\n
JBR: So in some way the collective and divided labour that goes into producing the latest cinematic
\ncommodities also has a doubled effect: firstly technique is revealed as the opposite of some kind of
\nfreedom, and at the same time this has an effect both on how the cinematic object is treated and
\nhow it appears. To be represented objects have to be surrounded by the new 3D capture technology,
\nand at the same time it laminates the images in a reflected glossiness that bespeaks both the
\ntechnology and the disappearance of the labour that has gone into creating it.
\n
DP: I\u2019m definitely interested in the images produced by the newest image technologies\u2014especially as
\nthey go beyond lens-based capture. One of the screens in the triptych uses volumetric capturing\u2014
\nbasically 3D scanning for moving image. The \u2018camera\u2019 perspective we experience as the viewer is
\nnon-existent, and as we travel into these virtual, impossible perspectives it creates the effect of
\nthese hollowed out, corroded bodies. This connects to a recurring motif of \u2018hollowing out\u2019 that
\nappears in the video and sculpture I\u2019ve been making recently.
\nAnd I have a recurring obsession with the hollowing out of reality caused by the new regime of
\ncommodities whose production has become cut to the bone, so emptied of their material integrity
\nthat they\u2019re almost just symbols of themselves. So in my show \u2018The Dark Pool\u2019 (Hollybush Gardens,
\n2014) I made sculptural assemblages with Ikea tables and shelves, which when you cut them open are
\nhollow and papery. Or in \u2018Time Crystals\u2019 (Pumphouse Gallery, 2017) I worked with clothes made in the
\nimage of the past from Primark and H&M that are so low-grade that they can barely stand washing.
\nWe are increasingly surrounded by objects, all of which have\u2014through contemporary processes of
\nhyper-rationalisation and production\u2014been slowly emptied of material quality. Yet they have the
\nresemblance of luxury or historical goods. This is a real kind of spectral reality we inhabit.\u00a0<\/p>\n

I wonder to myself about how the unconscious might haunt us in these days when commodities
\nhave become hollow. Might it be like Benjamin\u2019s notion of the optical unconscious, in which through
\nthe photographic still the everyday is brought into a new focus, not in order to see what is behind
\nthe veil of semblance, but to see\u2014and reclaim for art\u2014the veiling in a newly-won clarity.<\/p>\n

<\/i>DP: Yes, I see these new technologies as similar, but am interested in how they don’t just change
\nimpact perception but also movement. The veiled moving figures in \u2018The Searchers’ are a strange byproduct of digital video compositing. I was looking to produce highly abstract linear depictions of
\nbodies reduced to fleshy lines, similar to those in the show and I discovered that the best way to
\ncreate these abstract images was to cover the face and hands of performers when you film them to
\nhide the obvious silhouettes of hands and faces. But asking performers to do this inadvertently
\nproduced a very peculiar movement\u2014the strange veiled choreography that you see in the show. I
\nfound this footage of the covered performers (which was supposed to be a stepping stone to a more
\ndigitally mediated image, and never actually seen) really suggestive\u2014 the dancers seem to be seeking
\nout different temporary forms and they have a curious classical or religious quality or sometimes
\nevoke a contemporary state of emergency. Or they just look like absurd ghosts.
\n
JBR: In the last hundred years, when people have talked about ghosts the one thing they don\u2019t want
\nto think about is how children consider ghosts, as figures covered in a white sheet, in a stupid
\ntangible way. Ghosts\u2014as traumatic memories\u2014have become more serious and less playful. Ghosts
\nmean dwelling on the unfinished business of the past, or apprehending some shard of history left
\nunredeemed that now revisits us. Not only has no one been allowed to be a child with regard to
\nghosts, but also ghosts are not for materialists either. All the white sheets are banished. One of the
\nthings about Marx when he talks about phantoms\u2014or at least phantasmagorias\u2014is much closer to
\nthinking about, well, pieces of linen and how you clothe someone, and what happens with a coat
\nworked up out of once living, now dead labour that seems more animate than the human who wears
\nit.\u00a0
DP: Yes, I\u2019ve been very interested in Marx\u2019s phantasmagorias. I reprinted Keston Sutherland\u2019s brilliant
\nessay on how Marx uses the term \u2018Gallerte\u2019 or \u2018gelatine\u2019 to describe abstract labour for a recent
\nshow. Sutherland highlights a vitalism in Marx\u2019s metaphysics that I\u2019m very drawn to. For the last few
\nyears I\u2019ve been working primarily with dancers and physical performers and trying to somehow make
\nwork about the weird fleshy world of objects and how they\u2019re shot through with frozen labour. I love
\nhow he describes the \u2018wooden brain\u2019 of the table as commodity and how he describes it \u2018dancing\u2019\u2014I
\nalways wanted to make an animatronic dancing table.\u00a0
JBR: There is also a sort of joyfulness about that. The phantasmagoria isn\u2019t just scary but childish.
\nOf course you are haunted by commodities, of course they are terrifying, of course they are worked
\nup out of the suffering and collective labour of a billion bodies working both in concert and yet
\nalienated from each other. People\u2019s worked up death is made into value, and they all have
\nunfinished business. But commodities are also funny and they bumble around; you find them in your
\nhouse and play with them.\u00a0
DP: Well my last body of work was all about dancing and how fashion commodities are bound up with
\njoy and memory, but this show has come out much bleaker. It\u2019s about how bodies are searching out
\nsomething else in a time of crisis. It\u2019s ended up reflecting a sense of lack and longing and general
\nfeeling of anxiety in the air. That said I am always drawn to images that are quite bright, colourful
\nand \u2018pop\u2019 and maybe a bit banal\u2014everyday moments of dead time and secret gestures.\u00a0
JBR: Yes, but they are not so banal. In dealing with tangible everyday things we are close to time
\nand motion studies, but not just in terms of the stupid questions they ask of how people work
\nefficiently. Rather this raises questions of what sort of material should be used so that something
\nslips or doesn\u2019t slip\u2014or how things move with each other or against each other\u2014what we end up
\ndoing with our bodies or what we end up putting on our bodies. Your view into this is very
\nsympathetic: much art dealing in cut-up bodies appears more violent, whereas the ruins of your
\nabstractions in the stylised triptych seem almost caring.\u00a0
DP: Well I\u2019m glad you say that. Although this show is quite dark I also have a bit of a problem with a
\nstrain of nihilist melancholy that pervades a lot of art at the moment. It gives off a sense of being
\nsubsumed by capitalism and modern technology and seeing no way out. I hope my work always has a
\ncertain tension or energy that points to another possible world. But I\u2019m not interested in making
\nacademic statements with the work about theory or politics. I want it to gesture in a much more
\nintuitive, rhythmic, formal way like music. I had always made music and a few years back started to
\nrealise that I needed to make video with the same sense of formal freedom. The big change in my
\npractice was to move from making images using cinematic language to working with simultaneous
\nregisters of images on multiple screens that produce rhythmic or affective structures and can propose
\nwithout text or language.\u00a0
JBR: The presentation of these works relies on an intervention into the time of the video. If there is
\na haunting here its power appears in the doubled domain of repetition, which points both backwards
\ntowards a past that must be compulsively revisited, and forwards in convulsive anticipatory energy.
\nThe presentation of the show troubles cinematic time, in which not only is linear time replaced by
\ncycles, but also new types of simultaneity within the cinematic reality can be established between
\nloops of different velocities.\u00a0
DP: Film theorists talk about the way \u2018post-cinematic\u2019 contemporary blockbusters are made from
\nimages knitted together out of a mixture of live action, green-screen work, and 3D animation. I\u2019ve
\nbeen thinking how my recent work tries to explode that\u2014keep each element separate but
\nsimultaneous. So I use \u2018live\u2019 images, green-screened compositing and CGI across a show but never
\nbrought together into a naturalised image\u2014sort of like a Brechtian approach to post-cinema. The
\nshow is somehow an exploded frame of a contemporary film with each layer somehow indicating
\ndifferent levels of lived abstractions, each abstraction peeling back the surface further.\u00a0
JBR: This raises crucial questions of order, and the notion that abstraction is something that \u2018comes
\nafter\u2019 reality, or is applied to reality, rather than being primary to its production.\u00a0
DP: Yes good point. I think that\u2019s why I\u2019m interested in multiple screens visible simultaneously. The
\nlinear time of conventional editing is always about unveiling whereas in the show everything is
\navailable at the same time on the same level to some extent. This kind of multi-screen, multi-layered
\napproach to me is an attempt at contemporary \u2018realism\u2019 in our times of high abstraction.
\nThat said it\u2019s strange to me that so many artworks and games using CGI these days end up echoing a
\nkind of \u2018naturalist\u2019 realist pictorialism from the early 19th Century\u2014because that\u2019s what is given in
\nthe software engines and in the gaming-post-cinema complex they\u2019re trying to reference. Everything
\nis perfectly in perspective and figures and landscapes are designed to be at least pseudo \u2018realistic\u2019. I
\nguess that\u2019s why you hear people talking about the digital sublime or see art that explores the
\nRomanticism of these \u2018gaming\u2019 images.\u00a0
JBR: But the effort to make a naturalistic picture is\u2014as it was in the 19th century\u2014already not the
\nsame as realism. Realism should never just mean realistic representation, but instead the incursion
\nof reality into the work. For the realists of the mid-19th century that meant a preoccupation with
\nmotivations and material forces. But today it is even more clear that any type of naturalism in the
\nwork can only serve to mask similar preoccupations, allowing work to screen itself off from reality.\u00a0
DP: In terms of an anti-naturalism I\u2019m also interested in the pictorial space of medieval painting that
\nbreaks the laws of perspective or post-war painting that hovered between figuration and abstraction.
\nI recently returned to Francis Bacon who I was the first artist I was into when I was a teenage goth
\nand who I\u2019d written off as an adolescent obsession. But revisiting Bacon I realised that my work is
\nhighly influenced by him, and reflects the same desire to capture human energy in a concentrated,
\nabstracted way. I want to use \u2018cold\u2019 digital abstraction to create a heightened sense of the physical
\nbut not in the same way as motion capture which always seems to smooth off and denature
\nmovement. So the graph-like image in the centre of the triptych (Les Fant\u00f4mes) in this show twitches
\nwith the physicality of a human body in a very subtle but palpable way. It looks like CGI but isn\u2019t and
\nhas this concentrated human life force rippling through it.\u00a0<\/p>\n

If in this space and time of loops of the exploded unstill still, we find ourselves again stuck in this
\nshuddering and juddering, I can\u2019t help but ask what its gesture really is. How does the past it holds
\ngesture towards the future? And what does this mean for our reality and interventions into it.
\n
<\/i>
JBR: The green-screen video is very cold. The ruined 3D version is very tender.
DP: That’s funny you say that. People always associate \u2018dirty\u2019 or \u2018poor\u2019 images with warmth and find
\nmy green-screen images very cold. But in the green-screened video these bodies are performing a
\nvery tender dance\u2014searching out each other, trying to connect, but also trying to become objects, or
\nhaving to constantly reconfigure themselves and never settling.
\n
JBR: And yet with this you have a certain conceit built into the drapes you use: one that is in a
\ntotally reflective drape, and one in a drape that is slightly too close to the colour of the greenscreen background. Even within these thin props there seems to be something like a psychological
\ndescription or diagnosis. And as much as there is an attempt to conjoin two bodies in a mutual
\ndarkness, each seems thrown back by its own especially modern stigma. The two figures seem to
\nportray the incompatibility of the two poles established by veiled forms of the world of
\ncommodities: one is hidden by a veil that only reflects back to the viewer, disappearing behind what
\ncan only be the viewer\u2019s own narcissism and their gratification in themselves, which they have
\nmistaken for interest in an object or a person, while the other clumsily shows itself at the very
\nmoment that it might want to seem camouflaged against a background that is already designed to
\ndisappear. It forces you to recognise the object or person that seems to want to become
\ninconspicuous. And stashed in that incompatibility of how we find ourselves cloaked or clothed is a
\ncertain unhappiness. This is not a happy show. Or at least it is a gesturally unsettled and unsettling
\none.
\n
DP: I was consciously thinking of the theories of gesture that emerged during the crisis years of the
\nearly 20th century. The impact of the economic and political on bodies. And I wanted the work to
\nreflect this sense of crisis. But a lot of the melancholy in the show is personal. It’s been a hard year.
\nBut to be honest I\u2019m not that aligned to those who feel that the current moment is the worst of all
\npossible times. There\u2019s a left\/liberal hysteria about the current moment (perhaps the same hysteria
\nthat is fuelling the rise of right-wing populist ideas) that somehow nothing could be worse than now,
\nthat everything is simply terrible. But I feel that this moment is a moment of contestation, which is
\ntough but at least means having arguments about the way the world should be, which seems better
\nthan the strange technocratic slumber of the past 25 years. Austerity has been horrifying and I realise
\nthat I\u2019ve been relatively shielded from its effects, but the sight of the post-political elites being
\nejected from the stage of history is hopeful to me, and people seem to forget that the feeling of the
\nrise of the right has been also met with a much broader audience for the left or more left-wing ideas
\nthan have been previously allowed to impact public discussion. That said, I do think we\u2019re
\nexperiencing the dog-end of a long-term economic decline and this sense of emptying out is
\nproducing phantasms and horrors and creating a sense of palpable dread. I started to feel that the
\nimages I was making for \u2018The Searchers\u2019 engaged with this.<\/p>\n

David Panos (b. 1971 in Athens, Greece) lives and works in London, UK. A selection of solo and group
\nexhibitions include Pumphouse Gallery, Wandsworth, London, 2017 (solo); Sculpture on Screen. The
\nVery Impress of the Object, Gulbenkian Museum, Lisbon, Portugal [Kirschner & Panos], 2017;
\nNemocentric, Charim Galerie, Vienna, 2016; Atlas [De Las Ruinas] De Europa, Centro Centro, Madrid,
\n2016; The Dark Pool, Albert Baronian, Brussels, (solo), 2015; The Dark Pool, Galeria Marta Cervera,
\nMadrid, 2015; Whose Subject Am I?, Kunstverein Fur Die Rheinlande Und Westfalen, D\u00fcsseldorf, 2015;
\nThe Dark Pool, Hollybush Gardens, London, (solo), 2014; A Machine Needs Instructions as a Garden
\nNeeds Discipline, MARCO Vigo, 2014; Ultimate Substance, B3 Biennale des bewegten Blides,
\nNassauischer Kunstverein, Wiesbaden, (Kirschner & Panos solo), 2013; Ultimate Substance,
\nCentrePasquArt, Biel, (Kirschner & Panos solo), 2013; Ultimate Substance, Extra City, Antwerp,
\n(Kirschner & Panos solo), 2013; The Magic of the State, Lisson Gallery, London, 2013; HELL AS, Palais
\nde Tokyo, Paris, 2013.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

The Searchers by David Panos is at Hollybush Gardens, 1-2 Warner Yard London EC1R 5EY, 12 January \u2013 9 February 2019 There is something chattering. Alongside a triptych a small screen displays the rhythmic loop of hands typing, contorting, touching, holding. A movement in which the artifice strains between shuddering and juddering. Machinic GIFs seem […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"nf_dc_page":"","_eb_attr":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_monsterinsights_skip_tracking":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_active":false,"_monsterinsights_sitenote_note":"","_monsterinsights_sitenote_category":0,"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[12],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-58","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-art-criticism"],"blocksy_meta":{"styles_descriptor":{"styles":{"desktop":"","tablet":"","mobile":""},"google_fonts":[],"version":6}},"yoast_head":"\nConversation with David Panos about The Searchers - Jacob Bard-Rosenberg<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/jacobbr.com\/?p=58\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Conversation with David Panos about The Searchers - Jacob Bard-Rosenberg\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"The Searchers by David Panos is at Hollybush Gardens, 1-2 Warner Yard London EC1R 5EY, 12 January \u2013 9 February 2019 There is something chattering. 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